Position of reversed circles after b and p (Anniversary)

When a reversed circle follows ish, chay, j, f, or v, and and m or n follows the reversed circle, the m or n is written above the circle; but when a reversed circle follows p or b and precedes m or n, the m or n is written below the circle.  Writing the m or n above the reversed circle in all cases seems more logical and makes it easier to keep the m or n straight.
Can anyone explain why the manual calls for writing the m or n below a reversed circle that follows p, b, or left s?

(by bruceeford
for everyone)


12 comments Add yours
  1. The justification is that when writing quickly, j/ch/sh are more likely to curve before a reversed circle, and that writing the joining differently as opposed to how it'd be done after a b/p/f/v reduces potential difficulties in reading your outlines.
    I can assure you that this is a good idea, since when you start writing fast (in my experience), things that shouldn't curve start to, and things that should curve don't! 🙂

  2. Remember that when the Anniversary Manual was published Gregg Shorthand had been in use and refined for over 40 years. It was the 1929 Manual which regularized the use of the reversed circles to indicate an "r" following. If you check out the 1916 or 1902 Manuals use of the reverse was not consistent … a word such as "motor" was written as in Simplified "M-O-T-'R" whereas once you begin to use the reversed circles "M-O-T-reverse E" seems much more logical. Dr. BGregg did not sit bback passively, he waqs very interested in suggestions for improvement in outlines from reporters, teachers and actual users of the system. The Anniversary Manual represents a very well thought out edition of the system honed to serve its users. During the 20-year span of Anniversary, you'll note that a few outlines (such as "year" losing its loop) were modified.

  3. I understand that the m and n are written above the reversed circles after ish, chay, and j for the reason the you state.  What puzzles me is why the m and n are not also written above the circle after p and b.   The likelihood that m and n would degenerate into curves if written below the circles seems greater after p and b than after ish, chay, j, f, or v.   Am I missing the point?

  4. The problem is not with the m or n degenerating (in fact, the m or n should always be written straight!), the problem is with the other consonants. The ch could be confused with a p and the j can be confused with a b if there is no difference in the way we write the m or the n. So it's the ch and j degenerating into curves, not the m or n.

  5. I read your whole page of notes with little difficulty (after enlarging it).  Three outlines I could not decipher:   "These days when in doubt, I always listen to Chuck, who ___ ___ ___, both in English and Spanish."

  6. BruceFord

    I must have meant N-O-S rather than N-U-S

    who knows whereof he speaks

    The outlines were very impromptu, I was writing as I thought … glad there is someone out there who can decipher my scrawl!

    Thanks for your input.


    I should always have a dictionary at work … found out later when I looked it up K-S-N is "consonant" rather than my spur of the moment K-S-NT.

  7. One thing I note that caused me a little trouble was the use of "r-s-p" for respect.  In Anniversary, respect, respectful, respectfully are written "r-e-s".  R-s-p is "response, responsible."   On the whole, your shorthand is very legible and clearly written.  It was easy to read.  I agree, Chuck does know whereof he speaks.  🙂    Very nice handiwork. 

  8. Thanks for your kind words. Since it's actually been over 30 years since I've really attempted verbatim shorthand and mainly use it forr personal notes, doubtlessly I have forgotten a lot of the brief forms and abbreviations.

    Perhaps one weekend I'll find the time to go over all the wordsign charts. I'm sure I need to. Anyway, I have lots of material to read and practice.

    I renewed my interest in using shorthand early last year when I discovered this group and actually have a decent library of texts ranging from 1902 to DJS, although essentially I only look at Anniversary and pre-Anniversary texts these days. How refreshing to learn that my notes can be read! LOL.

  9. Hi JRG!!!

    I could read your text in shorthand, no completely, but some parts. I haven't finished yet Gregg in English.

    Anyway, I would like to advice something about your shorthand penmanship: try to improve your V, F and S, giving them a better slant. They look a bit straightish.



Leave a Reply