Hmm? French Shorthand?

Good evening all!
I was wondering if there was any website for french shorthand?
I like the french language, and I would definetely jump at the chance of making my writing extra unintelligible to others. 😀

If there is not a site, would it still be the same in essence,
i.e., ciel, meaning sky would just be s-i-l, or whatever? or is it a bit trickier than that? 

(by c-higginson for everyone)

30 comments Add yours
  1. There is a French version of Gregg.  Though finding it may be a bit more difficult.  There's a bit more vowel representation from what I remember.  Early on Gregg Publishing was very aggressive in translating the system into the major languages.  They did one for Esperanto as well. 

  2. A shorthand that's well-designed for a specific language will be better than one that's adapted from another language.

    I think Duploy (spelling?) was designed for French; whether it's well-designed is another question.

    I know Pitman and TeeLine also have adaptations. IIRC, the Pitman one didn't work well.

    Cheers!

  3. Duploy챕 shorthand is (was) the most commonly used shorthand in France, it's a light-line system like Gregg but much less cursive. It is actually a direct ancestor of Gregg: it was adapted to English (and published as "Pernin's phonography" among others) and was the main inspiration for John Robert Gregg in developping his own system.

    The biggest difference between Gregg and Duploy챕 is that Duploy챕 doesn't blend strokes, so Gregg is much more cursive, whereas a page of Duploy챕 could easily be mistaken for Teeline.

    I used to live in Quebec and there it was easy to find French Gregg books, so I think that French Gregg was fairly succesful there, but I've never seen a Gregg book in France (where I now live).

    Personally I would recommend tracking down a French Gregg book rather than learning Duploy챕, because I can't help but think that the blending strokes in Gregg will be a great benefit to speed.

  4. As was mentioned here and in other threads, French Gregg never caught on in France, but was used in Quebec, generally by stenographers who had to write both in French and English. In that case, it was easier to learn one system than two.

    If you know English Gregg, French Gregg is very similar. The biggest difference is that the over and under th (called ye in French Gregg) is used for the y sound in words like soleil (s-o-l-e-ye) or panier (p-a-n-ye-e). Ch is used in words like cher. J is used in words like jambe, as well as for the soft g. Sh is only used in the suffixes -cien, -sion, -tion, -cial, -tial, and -tiel.

    The usage of the vowels is as follows:
    a: used for a
    e: used for e, 챕, 챔, ai, i
    o: used for o, au, eau
    u: used for ou, u, eu
    w-a: oi
    ye (looks like th in English Gregg): y sound as in soleil or panier
    ye-u: ieu

    Nasal vowels
    a-n: used for an, en
    e-n: used for in, ain
    o-n: used for on
    u-n: used for un, eun

    Here's a list of brief forms to get you started.
    e: et, est, y
    r: heure
    o: autre
    s: ce, se, suis
    t: tout, toute, te
    d: de
    l: il, le
    u: vous
    f: faire
    v: avoir, avons, avez, avait
    n: ne, en, nous in phrases
    m: Monsieur, me
    dot: un, une
    p: peu, peut
    b: bien
    p-r: pour
    k: que
    g: grand, grande
    j: je
    ch: cher, ch챔re
    m-s: Messieurs
    s-n: son, sont
    f-n: font, fonds
    v-n: vont
    n-o-t: notre
    v-t: votre
    o-s: aussi
    ch-o: chose
    v-k: avec
    j-u: jour

    The name of the book is "St챕nographie Gregg." I have a copy that I got from abebooks.com, but they appear all that often. If you are interested, I can try to provide more details of the system.

  5. I looked at the pronunciation of some of those words, especially /ye/. I always said "sol-A", with no /y/ sound; then again, I started it at age 9 and stopped at age 16. So, to all the dialects issues we have with Gregg in English, add those who studied (I hesitate to say 'learned" it as a second language. I'm beginning to thing "orthographic" isn't a dirty word after all! It's still more standardized than English spelling.

    Cricket

  6. Wow, thanks for the info.  I have always been curious about Gregg in French.  After I finish reviewing my English and Spanish Gregg, maybe I'll give the French version a try.  French was my 2nd language, and Spanish was my 3rd.  Portuguese was my 4th language, but I don't know if there is a Portuguese version of Gregg.  I saw a different system on the internet called "Taquibras" which seems to still be in wide use in Brazil…it doesn't resemble Gregg at all, not even a tiny bit.  –Alison

  7. <>

    Hi Troutgirl1501:

    I think you misunderstood that, because Taquibras is an academy in Brasil, where shorthand is taught. Mainly, they teach Alves shorthand, but there are a lot of shorthand systems for Portugues language, and adaptations, as well, like Gregg.

    One of our fellow in this forum (Waldir Cury) has a site for another Portugues system called Maron. Here's the link
    http://www.taquigrafia.emfoco.nom.br/

    Prof. Cury has a video in his site, where a girl is taking notes in Portugues Gregg shorthand. Look at his site, at the right side, where it says:
    "Taquigrafando com o m챕todo Gregg.
    Veja o VÍDEO!"

    Waiting for your comments!!!

    VALO
    Iquique, Chile

  8. Hi Alison,

    I am neither French nor Canadian. And basically the only French Gregg I know is what I got from the manual. I took some French when I was in high school and college. But it was thanks to this forum that I even found out that a French edition of Gregg existed. I then hunted on abebooks.com, waiting for a copy to appear. Since these copies don't appear very often, I decided to write out a summary of the system, to help anyone who wants to learn it. Perhaps, as Merove4 writes, copies of "St챕nographie Gregg" are easy to find in Quebec, but they are not easy to find online. But, maybe they are just not listed. A month ago I was visiting historic downtown Eureka, California, and stopped into Eureka Books. I was delighted to find that they had over a dozen shorthand books, mostly Gregg, but also some obscure systems I never heard of before. I purchased a copy of "Rip Van Winkle" and an Anniversary medical shorthand book. While talking to the clerk, I asked whether they listed with abebooks. She said they did, but only the common books. I would think that abebooks would be more useful for the uncommon books. By the way, I recall they had a copy of Pernin's shorthand, if anyone is interested. They will mail. Surprisingly, there was no Pitman.

    Cricket, there is a slight y sound at the end of "soleil," at least when the French carefully enunciate it. The "y" sound is probably clearer in the word "fille."

  9. Thanks, Valo.  You're right, I did misunderstand.  Thanks for the clarification  I will take a look at the websites you mentioned when I have a free moment.   From a cursory examination of that Taquibras school website, it would seem that shorthand is still commonly used in business and courtroom settings in Brazil.  Is shorthand still in use in your country?  Here in the U.S.A. it has helped me get various jobs over the years.  It's a nice "extra" one can offer one's employer.  It also inspires admiration–it's like I have magical powers similar to Harry Potter!   It's great fun to communicate with you and all the other Gregg enthusiasts all over the world.   Saludos, Alison

  10. Thanks, tayjyi…Used bookstores are great!  What fun to find some literature in shorthand, too.  I'd never heard of that until recently (after joining this group).   If I ever decide to learn French shorthand, I'll definitely go with Gregg.  –Alison

  11. I have updated St챕nographie Gregg in the Documents section to make it more complete. There is now a section on abbreviated words and a large section on phrases. I have also clarified some of the existing sections and put the whole document in PDF format to enhance readability.

  12. Hi Alison,   In Chile, Shorthand is mostly used in the Parlament: Senate and Representative chambers… I'm talking about written shorthand, because I never have heard if machine shorthand is used in somewhere. Shorthand is no longer taught in schools.   Ten years ago, I could chat with a reporter from Representative chambers, that he had to apply for the position: He learned Pitman shorthand from his sister (a reporter too). I remember some sentences from him:   "It's very rare to find a vacancy, a position for reporter; and when I found it, I applied for it but I forgot to bring my national identification card, so I couldn't do the test. But, I was lucky, there was another vacancy, I applied for and I got it."   "Everyone takes notes as she or he can" <– I understand it doesn't matter the system, even, if you use handwritting, draws, arrows, emoticons, etc.   I have read that Senate has an academy where shorthand is taught mainly to people with law studies, I don't know if Representative chamber is still calling for new positions. I tried to apply for that academy, but they require a certification of English level to every applicant that should be issued by a Militar Office, they did the exam in last April, here in my town, and during the whole year they do it in Santiago (the capital city) that's far away and expensive, more than 24 hours in a bus, or 2 hours by plane at US$ 200. They suggested to me for waiting just one year more, when they could take exams in my town.   Chile is applying a new system of Justice, where trials are faster than yesterday. But they just keep tape records, and make a summary of the trial… well, I'm talking about my personal experience: My ex-girlfriend and I broke in last February, we have a boy, so she prefered to do it legally for getting an amount for monthly maintenance (Is "allowance" the right word?). First, the man in charge of the room suggested to me to leave the court because my ex-girlfriend was late… and the judge too, he arrived 20 minutes later. Well, when the trial is starting the judge speaks to in a microphone, babbling about the case. The clerk types (with two fingers) in a computer, some data like names, time, number of the case, etc. As usual, Chile tries to copy an (North)American system but to its own way.   Well, every year (I guess) a meeting of shorthand reporters from different countries of Latin America is organised for sharing experiences. A lot of reporters, activities, speeches, workshop, etc. I guess, in Taquibras site is posted one meeting done in Chile. Take a look!   Saludos,          

  13. Gracias, Valo, por sus respuestas a mis mil preguntas.  (Thank you, Valo, for your answers to my 1,000 questions.)   That's fascinating that the shorthand machine – "stenotype" – hasn't yet arrived in Chile.  I got a kick out of the "two-finger typing" you mentioned.  Not terribly efficient in most cases!  However, in school I had a science teacher who could type incredibly fast with his two index fingers.   I (not to brag?) type 100 words a minute.  I'm sorry to say my Gregg is only around 60 words a minute, but I am reviewing and practicing to bring my speed back to 80 wpm just for fun.   You have an extra year to practice before the shorthand test comes to your town, so you will be really good by the time you take the test!   My company happens to have offices and warehouses in Chile.  Sadly, I don't think they will ever send me to Chile since I am a lowly, humble secretary.  Only executives get to travel.  It's too bad, I really want to visit all of South America, and I'd like my company to pay for the trip.   Gee, if I lived in Chile, maybe I could be a shorthand reporter for the government!  That actually sounds like a very interesting job.   Learning the various Chilean idioms and names for fruits and vegetables has been interesting for me.  (I work in agricultural chemicals)  I learned Spanish in Mexico, and it's amazing all the differences – Mexican "maíz" becomes Chilean "choclo", etc.

  14. Hi Alison & all,

    I found a Chilean site about stenotype (shorthand machine system), they offer the service and classes for everyone who wants to learn to: http://www.esteno.net/
    …of course, you have to pay for it.

    I was reading the schedule for students: "students should be able to type at a rate of 140-160 wpm." That's the goal finishing the course.

    Well, I suppose they are talking about Spanish word counting, for English should be from 200-230 wpm.; according to this chart posted by our fellow Chuck:

    English Speed (wpm) Spanish Speed (wpm)
    —————————— ——————————-
    60 42
    70 49
    80 56
    90 63
    100 70
    120 84
    140 98
    150 105
    180 126
    200 140
    220 154
    240 168

    About my rate in Gregg is around 98 wpm (Spanish), but I would like to reach 130 wpm.

    When I wrote about a test for getting in the Academy, that test is about English profiency, no about shorthand. Shorthand is taught in the Academy.

    Yeah! ma챠z = choclo. Anyway, here in Chile, when we use the word "ma챠z" we're talking about the plant, when we say "choclo", it's about the fruit. Although, we use the expression "palomitas de ma챠z" = "popcorn"; but as it's normal in Chile, we (they) love to adopt English words, so popcorn is more common.

    Chilean way Other countries
    —————– ———————-
    Palta Aguacate or Avocado (avocado)
    Man챠 Cacahuate (peanut)
    Papa Patata (potato)
    Tomate Jitomate (tomato)
    Betarraga Remolacha (beet)
    Aj챠 Chile (chilli)

    Even in Chile, we use two forms for the sweet pepper: Morr처n or Piment처n… though, both words come from the expression "Pimiento Morr처n".

    Bye,

    VALO

    p.s.: Alison, I added your email into my Messenger.

  15. Thank you, Valo.  Too bad the site costs money.  I'm quite impressed with your shorthand speed!  I am not sure I was ever that fast.  I only have proof of about 85 wpm in one of my class books from 24 years ago.    Thanks also for all the "Chileanisms" for the fruits and veggies!  So "maíz" is the plant and "choclo" is the food that comes from the plant!  Wow.  I guess that's like the U.S., where "pig" is the animal, and "pork" is the meat that comes from the animal.  It would sound kind of icky if I told my kids, "I am going to serve you some pig tonight."  On the other hand, at home I say, "I am cooking 'roast beast'," just as a joke….

  16. P.S., Valo, I hope you and your family are O.K. after the recent earthquake.  I've sent a message to my co-worker in Chile to see if he and his family are O.K.  My co-worker was visiting a customer in Peru when a big earthquake struck in Peru a few months ago.  Maybe my co-worker is responsible for the quakes, and we should send him somewhere else, like Iraq????  Just kidding……   Thanks for adding me to your MSN Messenger–I have no idea how to use Messenger but will give it a try one day.   Stay safe!   –Alison

  17. Alison, thanks for asking.
    My family and I are fine.
    I work in a college, as Administrative Chief, and I was in my office when the earthquake began. Fortunately, the students behaved perfectly and they met in the "unceiling" yard. Here, it was 5 to 6 at Richter's scale.
    Pork and pig, nice!!!!
    Cricket, good information!!!

    SHORTHAND RULES

  18. I forgot to mention this: my college is in the safe zone of the town, and beside the hospital.

    It seems American people don't use Messenger too much as Latinamerican people do.

    …Alison, your co-worker should visit the White House, especially for meeting Mr. Bush… I'm not kidding.

    ji ji ji ji

    VIVE LA REVOLUTION!!!!

  19. Shorthand "rocks", too, in addition to "ruling"!  And, apparently, Chile has been rocking a lot lately.  Sorry!  I'm glad you, your family and students are O.K., Valo.  I live in "earthquake country" myself, and we are advised to go outside of our houses and stand in the street till the earthquake is over.  I usually just stay where I am and think, "Gee, we're having an earthquake."  (Not smart, I know!)

  20. I forgot to mention this: my college is in the safe zone of the town, and beside the hospital. Glad you're in a good spot, there.  Your college is probably a sturdy "earthquake-safe" type of building, also.  It's good to be close to the hospital, just in case!
    It seems American people don't use Messenger too much as Latinamerican people do.   Well, my husband and kids use Messenger–guess I need to learn.

    …Alison, your co-worker should visit the White House, especially for meeting Mr. Bush… I'm not kidding.  Hmmm….well, we only have around 400 days till we get a new president.  Phew!

    ji ji ji ji

    VIVE LA REVOLUTION!!!!    

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